As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. The NT authors don't always quote from the Septuagint. I simply know of its existence. They are not the Septuagint because you or others say they are. jodav. Seth was 105 in Masoretic, when he was father of Enosh, but 205 in Septuagint. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change. I neither approve nor disapprove of it. 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Septuagint vs Masoretic Texts (Torah, Tanakh, doctrine, women) User Name: Remember Me: Password Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! 3) When St. Cajetan was dealing with Luther, he was not a bishop at that time. And the evidence would seem to support it. Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums > The Virtual Yeshiva > Counter-Missionary Forum > dead sea scrolls and septuagint vs masoretic text . By Robert E. Reis. Every one. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Achilles6129, Apr 27, 2014. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . Hi folks, There is much 'evidence' out there that the Dead Sea Scrolls seems to support the Septuagint as being derived from a different Hebrew text a Masoretic vs LXX - Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums Some forums can only be seen by registered members. But we have explained. The Masoretic text is a text that has not been preserved by the Church, and so while it is worthy of study and comparison, it is not equally trustworthy. Scholars have been discussing this issue for millennia, but one aspect of this debate has garnered considerable attention in our circles recently: the Masoretic (MT) vs. Septuagint (LXX) debate. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Achilles6129, Apr 27, 2014. Whatever analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls you are relying on is skewed due to including some non qumran texts as Dead Sea Scrolls, such as Masada documents and other cave discoveries which are proto-masoretic. Guns, Lies and Forgeries: A Bible Story. Septuagint: Masoretic: 1: In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. The Masoretic Text (MT ... (Septuagint, Masoretic Text, Samaritan Pentateuch) is closest to the theoretical Urtext is disputed. The logic you use is only simple in the sense that you could describe a man of limited intelligence as being "simple". Some forums can only be seen by registered members. First, they assume that if every manuscript agrees, that agreement is the original LXX. Some forums can only be seen by registered members. SEPTUAGINT VS. MASORETIC: WHICH IS MORE AUTHENTIC? Members … I really don't understand what you are doing here so I cannot comment. What books does the Septuagint have that the Masoretic Text does not? In the “Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs” of 1848, which was a reply to the epistle of Pope Pius IX, “To The Easterns,” the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, along with the other assembled bishops stated: The myth is to think LXX viewed its detero books as the same as its 22 books. Gold; Posts: 13719; Gender: Yahshua heals; Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline « on: December 28, 2009, 11:15:03 AM » KJV Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and … It is not a question of Greek texts vs Hebrew texts then but a difference in the original Hebrew texts themselves that provided the seventy scholars with their original Hebrew drafts for translation in the first place. In Matthew, for instance, the version of Isaiah that is quoted everywhere throughout represents no version of Isaiah that now exists. So Christ's sacrifice only atones for the sins of the living? discourse. Proto-Masoretic: A stable text and numerous, distinct agreements with the Masoretic Text. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . jodav. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding. http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/40-daniel-nets.pdf, http://biblehub.com/library/davidson/the_canon_of_the_bible/chapter_iii_the_samaritan_and.htm, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. The Septuagint versus the Masoretic The English version of the Septuagint text, Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton compared to the English version of the Masoretic text in the King James translation. The same goes for Seth. I never said those two statements so you are falsely accusing. The idea that Trent has any binding input to The whole of christian world is a faulty claim touted by them , but really lacks any basis of authority. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads. In addition, often some Hebrew of the dead sea scrolls which is categorized as supporting the masoretic … To the point where sometimes we don't even know what they were thinking of. An exception can be made for music videos.". Atoning for the sins of the dead is the major heresy in verse 45, The second is the implication of using money to atone for sins in verse 43. I stick to the Bishop as I find him much more compelling historically than you and clearly has a greater understanding of the issue than you do. 568. The Septuagint text is the text that the Church has preserved. Textual preservation is a critical issue for the Bible believer. Latest Photos Byzantine Nebraska by orthodoxsinner2, December 11 … That's what Jewish tradition claims. Share. In other words you guys need to come up with either better justifications, or admit that the contested books were rejected on the opinions of various Protestant leaders and scholars. ). www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Septuagint vs Masoretic text: Forums Calendar Active Threads: Newest Members: janis, Isaac14, MagdalenaRuth, gepaul, Thomas Taylor 5,669 Registered Users : Who's Online Now: 2 members (Cyril_Meth, Fr. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system. Here's an online translation. So it shouldn't be considered a translation either. Every Hebrew quotation in every Jewish writing after the first century agrees with the Masoretic Text. Registered User. Most manuscripts of the LXX were altered to conform in some way to the Masoretic Text. Septuagint vs Masoretic Texts (Gospels, woman, Moses, prayer) User Name: Remember Me: Password : Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! The version of Daniel that now exists in virtually every manuscript in existence–including all Septuagint manuscripts–is not the Septuagint of Daniel, but is the Greek text called "Theodotion". That depends on your beliefs and what you find most acceptable. 2: But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water. 568. About 60 percent of the Biblical scrolls (including 1QIsa-b) are in this category. Happy Septuagint Day!The core videos on the Septuagint are finished. It didn't, per Josephus. Septuagint (LXX) text vs. Masoretic (MT) text Old Testament – know your Bible! Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share. Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. This is a jump of 100 years. That the Septuagint is the most authoritative text in the Orthodox Church is something that is confirmed in just about any Orthodox catechetical text you could consult. Pre-Septuagint: Manuscripts which have distinctive affinities with the Greek Bible. Once upon a time there was a tribe living in the Middle East that had a collection of sacred texts written in Hebrew, Chaldean and Aramaic. Septuagint vs masoretic text about Christ. Septuagint vs Masoretic Texts (Torah, Tanakh, doctrine, women) User Name: Remember Me: Password Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! What makes the opinion of the Pope any more credible though, than that of Jerome, except for magical thinking that this must be so? Thread starter trofimus; Start date Nov 8, 2018; Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. A question about the accuracy of these texts sparks a quick recap of what these texts are.#TorahResource #Septuagint #MasoreticText Share with: Link: Copy link. 2) What little I know of the St. Cajetan, this just doesn't sound like something that he would say, so like I said if you are going to provide a exert as your proof, the burden is on you to provide a solid reference for it so that one can fact check. And what it corrects in the Masoretic Text demonstrates that the MT was altered by anti-Christian rabbis in the first and second centuries A.D. There never was one textus recepticus, but the consensus within the Jewish community was entirely in favour of the Septuagint until it became clear that many of its readings pointed too clearly to Christ. The Septuagint version of Jeremiah is about 1/8 (about 2700 words) shorter than the Masoretic. Your voice is missing! The Masoretic Text is the Hebrew text of the Old Testament used for our modern translations. There is some passages of the Bible in Hebrew in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the translation given to those passages is closer to the Septuagint than to the Masoretic. ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/. IIRC, the books they "ratified" didn't end up the same as the books for Trent. You also seem to have forgotten that the NT authors often take an OT phrase in paraphrase and use it to say something completely unconnected with its origin. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. It is my understanding that it did. You seem to have forgotten that the question at hand is whether only one exact version/translation is authoritative. It doesn't seem a very natural reading though. There is some passages of the Bible in Hebrew in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the translation given to those passages is closer to the Septuagint than to the Masoretic. A couple things I would like to start with. You do understand with in the Roman denomination Local (Hippo, Rome) councils do not set ecclesiastical policy. H owever, in the evolved Septuagint, d Ý aw o a (diasporá) and dÝaw e Ý eÝ n (diaspeírein) were coined as termini technici to. The text of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Peshitta reads somewhat in-between the Masoretic Text and the old Greek. 1) I would love to see the whole document, and not just one exert that most probably is being taken out of context. I just don't accept quotes that cannot be referenced. Their atonement both prefigures Christ's atonement and participates in the same. We have found copies of what is called the “pre-Masoretic text” (identical to the Masoretic Text except that it doesn't have vowel points or accentuation marks) among the Dead Sea Scrolls and outside of Qumran in other caves around the Dead Sea. It may paraphrase the text here or there but in each case it preserves the exact sense of the text. It is the nature of sacred texts to be venerated and transmitted from generation to generation unaltered. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum. The only copies of scripture that are different from the Masoretic Text are those that were at places like Qumran, which considered the temple an abomination (and, thus, wouldn't have been having its scriptures corrected to the official copies in the temple) and those that were formed in foreign countries (like the LXX in Egypt). Christian Forums. Where alternate readings existed, the Masoretic text incorporated the one which supported the Talmudic tradition, which was developing in parallel with the establishment of the Masoretic canon. In order to reconstruct what the original LXX was, scholars usually depend upon a huge amount of textual criticism. The same consonantal text that I use every day existed at the time of Christ and before Christ. Yet, modern Christian translations of the Old Testament rely on the Masoretic Text, not the Septuagint. Then where there are disagreements, they use surviving pieces of Origen's Hexapla and the translation of the Hexapla into Syriac (called the Syro-Hexapla) to reconstruct it. Over and over and over. Decree of Damasus, from the Acts of the Roman Synod, 382 A.D. CHURCH FATHERS: Council of Carthage (A.D. 419), Letter of Innocent I on the Canon of Scripture, CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Doctrine, Book II (St. Augustine), http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm, CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the New Testament, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. An exception can be made for music videos.". A very well-researched and cogent argument. Latest Photos Byzantine Nebraska … And the Israelites atoned for sin with animals, and some with grain. What of it? by Fr. And it flies in the face of the NT being pretty indifferent to the question, apparently drawing from Greek, Hebrew and paraphrases of the texts. If we are to say that the Bible has been inspired, we need to know what it contains. WhiteWings. The Dead Sea Scrolls give an interesting piece of information of the differences. According to the relevant research the excessive text of the MT version is due to additions of several stereotypical and conventional expressions, finally damaging the original form of the prophecies that is full of meaning and superbly measured. And every manuscript we have of the LXX is different. 4 posts dead sea scrolls and septuagint vs masoretic text dead sea scrolls and septuagint vs masoretic text . Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. What are some additions to some books that are in both? We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! I've been reading from the MT for years and I haven't picked up on any. Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share. On the other hand, The LXXvs the Masoretic as it pertains to Deuterocanons is really an apple and oranges issue, since Deuterocanons are not a part of the Masoretic in the first place, and there is nothing to compare to. The Septuagint is one of the most important assets that textual criticism has today. You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world. I suppose one could understand those statements your way. And they would have been Hebrew. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding. The Septuagint version of Daniel was almost entirely lost. In fact, there is a very real question whether we even have the same LXX as it originally existed. Author Topic: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline (Read 5518 times) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. If you have an historical source of someone attempting to correct Cajetan as his shows how scripture is to be viewed, and the correct understanding of previous councils on the issue then please cite it, I would love to see it as would so many other current day Roman Catholic historians. These would have been considered the “official” scriptures. Life-bits New life-bits from CC members New comments Search life-bits. We have the promise that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth (John 16:13), and … You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world. One reason why the Masoretic Text hasn't changed since before the time of Christ (except for the addition of vowels and accents) is probably because the scrolls in the temple were used to correct errant copies. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. So if there is a “Christian bias,” it would have to be limited to the vowel points, which anyone can ignore easily enough (if they know Hebrew). There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. Why isn't "not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law" in reference to the immutability and inviolability of Scripture not a natural reading? What Jerome had problems was the idea that the Greek Deuterocanons were of the same quality as the more ancient Hebrew texts that preceded all that came after. How so? www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Septuagint vs Masoretic text: Forums Calendar Active Threads: Newest Members: Tredoslop, RPAW68, MyraKull, Aurealia, DNJCorg 5,688 Registered Users: Who's Online Now : 0 members (), 130 guests, and 163 robots. Although I haven't decided yet what I think of the LXX, I do believe the MT is the word of God. Septuagint vs Masoretic Texts (Pentateuch, punishment, believe, scriptures) User Name: Remember Me: Password : Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! In those cases, the LXX was sometimes used. View detailed … Christian Chat App. I think that you are still confusing the LXX or Alexandrian canon with what is called the Palestinian canon. Menu. Jesus Christ sacrifice atones for all the sins of believers. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. What's new New posts New life-bits New life-bit comments New profile posts Latest activity. Again, depends on your beliefs and what you find most acceptable. Android Mobile App Windows Desktop App Mac Desktop App. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. How so? ). The Septuagint is older than the Masoretic text, was the version of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament and is accepted by the Church as its official version of the Old Testament. It is obvious from scripture and simple logic. The books that are not in the Hebrew canon are called Readable Books, which means that they are not to be discarded as the Protestants did, but they are not on the same level as the other books of the Old … Oddly our Protestant Bibles actually reflect the Septuagint instead of the Masoretic in some places like Isaiah 7:14, but perhaps consistency calls us to choose one version as the reliable standard. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. There are clear examples where the Septuagint (LXX) gives us the CORRECT version of what the original Hebrew author wrote. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. "Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For example, the Masoretic says that Adam was 130 when he became father of Seth, but in the Septuagint it say he was 230. Also, we have several witnesses—including witnesses from the first century like Josephus—who said there were copies of the scrolls in the temple. John Whiteford. Whether Rabbinic or otherwise. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change. Some forums can only be seen by registered members. And even though the LXX is a translation, it comes from a Hebrew text that agrees with it. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system. The Septuagint predates the first appearance of the Masoretic text by almost ten centuries. The septuagint is far more reliable than the Masoretic more often than not. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Sometimes the Targumim were used. It is perfectly acceptable for all of us to understand that it was just St Jerome's opinion. Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod. You simply disagree, just as you disagree with EO's canon or OO's canon. The MT is not a translation. As to Jerome, he is not stating his view, but giving the view of the church: It is a moot point to make an argument from authority with people who do not believe in with the same quasi-magical, mysterious, miraculous authority of an infallible Pope and Church as what you maintain is self-evident. Your voice is missing! I've been reading from the MT for years and I haven't picked up on any anti-Christian bias. Sometimes other Greek versions, different from the LXX, were used. Septuagint vs Masoretic Texts (Pentateuch, punishment, believe, scriptures) User Name: Remember Me: Password Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
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